{"id":7061,"date":"2019-06-25T06:00:03","date_gmt":"2019-06-25T06:00:03","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/copy-of-042-three-life-changing-strategies-to-experience-brilliant-balance-cherylanne-skolnicki\/"},"modified":"2021-03-03T23:20:53","modified_gmt":"2021-03-03T15:20:53","slug":"043-discover-a-radically-positive-way-to-divorce-gabrielle-hartley-esq","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/?p=7061","title":{"rendered":"043: Discover a Radically Positive Way to Divorce &#8211; Gabrielle Hartley, Esq."},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/embed.radiopublic.com\/e?if=inspiration-rising-WY5X55&amp;ge=s1!ca6a83aec7d80b62fac3fe4012d7266a1cb7b4cc\" width=\"100%\" height=\"185\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" sandbox=\"allow-same-origin allow-scripts allow-top-navigation allow-popups\"><\/iframe><\/p>\r\n<p><strong>Gabrielle Hartley<\/strong> is a leading divorce attorney, mediator, coach, author and speaker. Her book, <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2NcMqeo\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate<\/a>, is the first book of its kind to combine the life changing, healing wisdom of mindfulness, meditation and yoga with practical advice and legal wisdom to get the reader through and beyond the divorce. Better Apart was named \u201cthe conscious uncoupling how-to\u201d by People Magazine. She has also been featured throughout media channels including The New York Times, The New York Post, Yoga Journal, &amp; Mind Body Green. She is known for a unique, non-toxic approach to divorce that she developed over two decades in practice. She served as court attorney for Judge Jeffrey Sunshine in NYC matrimonial court and is a member of the Association of the Bar of the City of New York, and the Massachusetts Council on Family Mediation. Gabrielle brings her spirit, smarts and energy to every life she touches. <a href=\"http:\/\/www.gabriellehartley.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">She provides a robust array of resources<\/a> (webinars, live classes, one to one coaching, workshops, key notes and connection to other professionals and resources) for people who are ready to feel better through and beyond divorce. Gabrielle will help you move beyond feeling victimized by your relationship or situation, learn to manage your emotions around your ex&#8217;s manipulations (or irritations) and start to feel better. She currently resides in Northampton, MA with her husband and three sons.<\/p>\r\n<p><b>In This Episode, You Will Learn:<\/b><\/p>\r\n<ul>\r\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The greatest challenges that most couples face during divorce.<\/span><\/li>\r\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Five essential elements to cultivating an elegant divorce.<\/span><\/li>\r\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How to deal with an ex who isn&#8217;t interested in an elegant divorce.<\/span><\/li>\r\n<\/ul>\r\n<p><strong>Create beautiful, engaging social media in 5 minutes a day &#8211;<\/strong>\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.riseupcreatives.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">www.RiseUpCreatives.com<\/a><\/p>\r\n<p><strong>Connect with Gabrielle:<\/strong><\/p>\r\n<ul>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/gabriellehartley.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">GabrielleHartley.com<\/a><\/li>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2X6o2Qk\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate<\/a><\/li>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/gabriellelhartley\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Facebook<\/a><\/li>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/gabrielle_hartley_esq\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Instagram<\/a><\/li>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/betterapartgab\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Twitter<\/a><\/li>\r\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/gabrielle-hartley-0b43139\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">LinkedIn<\/a><\/li>\r\n<\/ul>\r\n<p><strong>Don\u2019t Miss A Single Episode:<\/strong><\/p>\r\n<ul>\r\n<li><strong>Subscribe<\/strong>\u00a0on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/inspiration-rising\/id1448649388\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/m\/Iqrp5q3bagph2t23malprd3dxvy?t=Launch_Yourself_Today\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcasts<\/a>,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/42zIsXzjCibZt49xdCRvB4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>, or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/in-plain-sight\/launch-yourself-today\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher<\/a>.<\/li>\r\n<li><strong>Leave a quick review<\/strong>\u00a0on any of the podcast apps to tell people what you think about the show.<\/li>\r\n<li><strong>Take a screenshot of the podcast<\/strong> and post it on Instagram or Instagram Stories. Tag us <a href=\"http:\/\/www.instagram.com\/insporising\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@insporising<\/a>. We\u2019ll repost and give you a shoutout!<\/li>\r\n<\/ul>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:post-content -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:spacer {\"height\":31} --><\/p>\r\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\" style=\"height: 31px;\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\u00a0<\/div>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:spacer -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:separator --><\/p>\r\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator\" \/>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:separator -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:spacer {\"height\":35} --><\/p>\r\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\" style=\"height: 35px;\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\u00a0<\/div>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:spacer -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:heading {\"level\":1,\"align\":\"center\"} --><\/p>\r\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\">Interview Transcript<\/h1>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:heading -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:paragraph --><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Gabrielle, thank you so much for taking time to hang with us today.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>So, you have worked with a lot of couples that are in the midst of turmoil and challenge. What are the primary reasons that you see why couples are getting divorced these days?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">That\u2019s a question that I\u2019m asked quite often. People ask if it\u2019s because of money or because of cheating. I was recently asked by someone who interviewed me, he was pretty young and he said, \u201cDo they get divorced because of stuff?\u201d I was like, \u201cNo, not so much.\u201d I would say really when it comes down to it, when most people separate, it\u2019s about communication. Sometimes it\u2019s because somebody grew within the relationship, they changed over time and somebody else stayed stagnant. Sometimes somebody had a low lying mental health issue that comes out more as we age and it\u2019s become an impediment to the communication. But I would say, if we had to pinpoint one issue that really is the thing that drives couples apart, it is the failure to listen.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>I think about the fact that I got married at twenty-one, my wife was twenty-two. We just celebrated our twenty-fifth wedding anniversary and there was a point about eleven years ago at which we were headed for divorce but we made it through. We have changed a lot over those twenty-five years. I mean, of course the core of who we are is the same but we have radically changed. I think that has got to be hard for most couples because you do change over that amount of time. <\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I would say we become more of who we are. In the book that I wrote, <i>Better Apart<\/i>, it is a divorce book but the essential elements of it apply to all of us. It\u2019s just about getting deeper into your own internal monologue and tapping into your internal narrative and figuring out how much of it is based on externalities versus what is truly inside of us and then taking a look at how we can enhance what\u2019s in us. Sometimes with relationships, we get into a negative pattern and we can\u2019t grow and become more of our true selves and I think that that\u2019s what makes relationships come to their demise.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>So, we are focused on your book today; <i>Better Apart<\/i> but one of the things that I want to hear from you is, what are the greatest challenges that couples face during divorce? Your book is all about how to have an elegant divorce and how to uncouple. So, when they\u2019re uncoupling and when they\u2019re separating, what are the challenges that<\/b> <b>most couples face? I know we\u2019ve got listeners who are in the midst of divorce right now and they\u2019re probably asking themselves, \u201cAm I alone in this?\u201d \u201cAm I the only one that\u2019s facing this?\u201d<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I think the greatest challenge is all the self-shaming that we do and all the stigma that\u2019s still out there and all the hiding in the shadows on the topic of divorce. I think that that\u2019s really prevalent and that is half the reason I wrote the book, I wanted people to feel held and to let them know they\u2019re not alone. No matter where you live, no matter who you are or if you\u2019re educated or didn\u2019t finish eighth grade, if you\u2019re poor or you\u2019re rich, no matter what language you speak, the main thing to know is you are not alone and you are going to be okay and you\u2019re going to get through this. I would encourage you to focus on you and your part and what you need to do to bring yourself forward.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">As we know, we cannot change other people, we can only control how we respond to other people. I know our parents say that and we hear people saying it, we might even say it to each other, but it\u2019s so hard to do when it\u2019s ourselves. It\u2019s really hard to not to react. It\u2019s also difficult sometimes not to distinguish the fact pattern of your breakup from one of your friends and then to overgeneralize. And then if things went really bad with them, you start to assume that the same thing is going to unravel in your life. But remember, although patterns may be generalized, we\u2019re highly nuanced beings and when you bring two people together, it\u2019s a whole other level of distinction of how we\u2019re going to interrelate.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Also, do not get swept away by the what your lawyer might be saying. Obviously, many, many friends and colleagues of mine are divorce lawyers but they kind of make fun of me. To them, I\u2019m the \u201cwoo-woo\u201d divorce lawyer but I always say you can be strong and kind at the same time. One thing to really focus on is getting really granular on what your needs are and then really listening to what your partner\u2019s needs are.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>\u201cBut I don\u2019t care about my partner\u2019s needs. That\u2019s why we\u2019re breaking up, Gabrielle.\u201d<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">The way you\u2019re going to get what you need is by giving them what they want.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Give me an example of that. How would that go down?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Okay, so somebody comes in and they say, \u201cOh, my God. Gabrielle, I want to stay in the house but I know that she wants the house and the kids are there,\u201d and they have this whole internal dialogue and they\u2019re totally insane about it in their mind as any of us may be.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>How long do you listen until you cut them off?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Well, it depends. People need to unload. We all need to, especially when we\u2019re emotionally charged.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Right, they probably won\u2019t be able to listen to you until they get it out.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Exactly. So, then I might say, \u201cHave you asked if she cares about the house?\u201d \u201cWell, no. But I know she wants to stay with the kids.\u201d Sometimes it\u2019s as simple as asking the question and she might say, \u201cWell, I\u2019d like the stay in the house,\u201d but that\u2019s not like <i>the<\/i> thing that she\u2019s focused on. Maybe she\u2019s focused on, \u201cI had an affair but I still want 50\/50 custody and I think you\u2019re going to say I\u2019m a bad mom.\u201d Or, \u201cMaybe I don\u2019t make as much money and I want to make sure that I get as generous a division of property.\u201d Or, \u201cMaybe I have family money that I really don\u2019t want you to touch and because of that I\u2019m willing to let you keep the house.\u201d That\u2019s just one example but there are so many ways and so many angles.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I\u2019ll tell you an unrelated story just really quickly. Your typewriters are making me think of my grandma because they\u2019re old school, but when my grandma died, there was this tray she owned from probably the sixties or before I was born and we called it the \u201csick tray\u201d. It\u2019s this tin tray with crazy orange and yellow flowers on it and she used to serve my brother and my cousins and me if we stayed at her house when my parents went to work when were sick. I have such great memories of her cutting up an orange into many, many pieces and just spending quality time with her. So, when she died, I was so sure everybody was going to want the sick tray. So, when I was at her house, I was just waiting for the right moment. I went and I got the sick tray and I went to my cousins and to my brother and as it turned out, nobody else cared about the sick tray.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">It\u2019s important not to assume that your spouse cares as strongly or in the same way about the same things you do. Or maybe you\u2019re concerned about the parenting plan and you think, \u201cOh, well my spouse is a really great dad or mom, but she drinks too much.\u201d Maybe you make certain rules around driving. There are always ways to explore a parenting plan that meets everyone\u2019s needs. And I use the word \u201cneeds\u201d and not \u201cwants\u201d specifically.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>You talk about having an elegant divorce. How would you define an elegant divorce? How would you describe that?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">What makes a divorce elegant or easeful or better, is one where everyone feels that they\u2019re at a point of stasis. So, I talk about peace. Peace is not about fluffy fairy unicorns; it\u2019s about feeling okay and about noticing the neutral. When we\u2019re at a place of neutrality, then we have somewhere to go. Now maybe you\u2019re dealing with someone who has a true narcissistic personality disorder and you\u2019re just forever frustrated by them because the conversations don\u2019t go anywhere because they\u2019ve got their own dialogue in their head, but that\u2019s okay. You can still be neutral with them because you can still convey concise messaging to them that they will hear or at least have to respond to as long as you don\u2019t allow yourself to get swept up into their drama. They\u2019ll find somebody else to be receptive to their drama because it\u2019s not really about you. Most of what comes at us has nothing to do with us.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Elegant is being internally and externally aligned and feeling at one. I think a lot of people compare elegance to fashion, but what is elegant fashion? It\u2019s simple, it\u2019s clean, right? And so, it\u2019s the same when it comes to divorce. I had a call recently where somebody said, \u201cHey Gabrielle, I just want to run something by you. You\u2019re going to kill me. I was too generous. It was three years ago and I gave away so much.\u201d And then I said, \u201cWell, what do you have?\u201d It turns out this person makes significant money and it was not hard at all for him to pay a lot of money because he had plenty.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">We went through the whole thing and I asked, \u201cHow\u2019s your relationship,\u201d and \u201cHow\u2019s this?\u201d \u201cEverything\u2019s great but maybe I paid too much.\u201d I said, \u201cIt doesn\u2019t sound like you did to me. It sounds like it worked out great. And how\u2019s your relationship now?\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s great and actually maybe I don\u2019t have to pay forever.\u201d \u201cWell, that\u2019s great.\u201d So, sometimes it\u2019s okay to give more. It\u2019s also okay to take less because you might not need as much as the law gives you. People should know, because your listeners are probably all over the country, I\u2019ve been a divorce lawyer in more than one location and I talk all over the country, so I meet with a lot of divorce lawyers. One thing to know is that the law is just trying to capture in broad brush strokes what seems fair enough. Your outcome may be quite different if you live in upstate New York and downstate New York or if you live in Texas and California. You\u2019re the same people, you have the same emotions but your rights may be very different. That\u2019s just interesting information.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Especially if you\u2019re talking to relatives and friends and you\u2019re comparing and contrasting. It may not be the same situation in your area of the country.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">And even just for yourself. If you\u2019re like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s what the law is,\u201d it doesn\u2019t mean the law is right. It just means that was the bargain that was made at the time when the law was enacted.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>You have five essential elements that you talk about in your book <i>Better Apart<\/i>, and I want us to walk through these just briefly. I do want people to get the book because you dive deep on all five but would you mind going through those and tell us why those elements are so important in order to have an elegant divorce?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Absolutely. So, in <i>Better Apart<\/i> we explore five essential elements. I\u2019ll talk about them in the order that I\u2019ve presented them in the book and because I\u2019m super impatient, I made <i>Patience <\/i>first. For somebody else, <i>Forgiveness<\/i> might be the most important. But forgiveness is super easy for me, so it\u2019s less interesting in a way.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">If you\u2019re going through a divorce or any difficult transition, patience is absolutely essential because much of this is a marathon, it is not a sprint. You have very little control about the way things are going to unfold in terms of timing and maybe even in terms of outcome. You may feel very inflamed or enraged at certain points. So, patience is all about taking a step back and making room to breathe and to settle. I would say deep breaths is the number one key takeaway from patience. Literally taking deep breaths, getting your thinking brain engaged, calming your emotional brain, that\u2019s when you\u2019re going to make better choices.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">The second element is <i>Respect.<\/i> Respect is primarily about self-respect, because when we don\u2019t feel good, we\u2019re not going to act respectful to anybody else. We\u2019re not going to be able to be really routed and engaged in ourselves and life\u2019s not going to be good. I quote my maternal grandpa all the time, he used to always say, \u201cNever throw anyone away, just put them on a shelf,\u201d and when you\u2019re going through a divorce, there\u2019s a lot of people and places and circumstances you might have to shelve. It doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t be friends with them again, maybe it\u2019s a sister-in-law who you loved so much but right now it\u2019s not a good time. You might even say, \u201cIt\u2019s not a good time right now but I hope we can re-establish our relationship at some point.\u201d It might be different but still re-establish it.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Creating boundaries is a great way to elevate your self-respect. When you\u2019re going through the book, I encourage everyone to get a journal to do certain exercises and one thing that I suggest people do is to make a list, almost like a mantra on a daily basis, of things that make you feel good; things, people, places. Let\u2019s say you have a crappy day and you end your day by making that darn list that you don\u2019t feel like making, of as many things that make you feel good, when you go to bed at night, you might just feel a little bit better.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">The third is <i>Clarity <\/i>and that\u2019s really about stepping back from the blame game and moving into the place where you can be the best active visionary that you can be. How granular can you get on what you want to create for yourself, for your children, for your future? What I tell people to do is to pick something that\u2019s irritating you or something that you want to achieve or somewhere you want to be and then start making a list. If you\u2019re not a word person, make a vision board. Start creating your new future and again, do it as a mantra. In order to really effectuate change, it needs to be an automatic part of you. The only way it\u2019s going to be automatic is if you do it like brushing your teeth. I would say pick one of these themes and one of the activities and do it every day. Do it in the morning and at night every single day like a mantra.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Number four is <i>Peace.<\/i><\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Yeah, and we started to talk about peace and that\u2019s about noticing the neutral.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>What do you mean by \u201cnoticing the neutral\u201d? What does that mean to you?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">What\u2019s the goal here? The goal here is to get to positive, right? Or if not positive, to get out of the negative cycle. So, what we know is that humans need to hear between five to eight positives in order to listen and process one negative. Noticing the neutral is literally either verbalizing or at least internally noticing something so you\u2019re either giving yourself a positive signal or you\u2019re giving the other person a positive signal about something that just happened.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I\u2019ll give you an example from my own life with my kids. I read this book called <i>Raising Your Difficult Child<\/i>, which they re-named <i>The Nurtured Heart Approach<\/i>, because I don\u2019t think anybody wants to think of their kid as difficult. The book was better when it was called <i>Raising Your Difficult Child<\/i>, it was really very direct which I appreciated. I had two little boys at the time and they were very active. I remember it said you had to notice maybe fifteen neutral things every five minutes. I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t remember but it was a lot of things. I remember saying, \u201cHey, I noticed you haven\u2019t thrown sand at each other. Good job.\u201d So, that\u2019s a non-thing.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">If your ex is always showing up late and they show up on time, don\u2019t say, \u201cOh, you\u2019re on time for once.\u201d Say, \u201cHey, thanks for being on time.\u201d Because then that other person you\u2019re talking to feels the gratitude. Then if you could find a way to do that four or five more times before you say, \u201cHey buddy, you just did this or that wrong,\u201d then you\u2019re going to have a better likelihood of getting the outcome that you\u2019re looking for when things aren\u2019t going well.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>What about cultivating peace within myself? If I\u2019m in the midst of a divorce and speaking from my own experience as someone who was in the midst of a divorce but somehow was able to reconcile, it is just the most non-peaceful experience ever. It\u2019s absolutely debilitating. How does somebody help cultivate that peace within themselves?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">There are a lot of different exercises you can do. One thing that is very easy to do, is to give yourself an affirmation or a mantra that you say throughout the day. It could be, \u201cI feel at peace,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m radiantly calm,\u201d or \u201cI am magically peaceful.\u201d Whatever speaks to you. Those are my words, so they might not resonate for you, but find what works for you. Find peaceful words and literally give yourself a message. When you\u2019re giving yourself a message either through the visualization exercises that we talked about a moment ago in clarity or for this, be as specific and positive and present in everything that you say. Because it\u2019s more likely to be integrated in you and to manifest. By giving yourself an affirmation, if you just say it from time to time, it\u2019s not really going to do anything. You have to say it to yourself throughout the day all the time. Do you know why?<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Go for it. Tell me.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Because then when you\u2019re activated, it\u2019s right there. It\u2019s available to you. What\u2019s going to happen is, you are going to access it, maybe without even meaning to. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re not going to feel angry or sad or frustrated or any of those things, it just means that your brain is going to have a tiny little pause which is going to give you space to calm your central nervous system and be more thoughtful in how you treat yourself and how you treat your spouse or your ex-spouse.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Number five is <i>Forgiveness.<\/i> Hello, we\u2019ve got challenges here.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I know, right?<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>How is this even possible? I mean, the divorced couples that I connect with and coach, it\u2019s a lifetime of work in order to forgive.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Yeah, my mom had a really great divorce in terms of how they raised us. My mom held a lot of anger towards my dad though and I remember saying to her a few years ago, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you just get over it?\u201d She was like, \u201cI\u2019m going to be angry if I damn well want to.\u201d Then my book came out and I don\u2019t like to say my book changed anything because it\u2019s just a book but when she read it, she asked me, \u201cAre you trying to tell me something?\u201d I was like, \u201cMaybe.\u201d But now, I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s not like she said, \u201cOh, your book has helped me so much,\u201d but she\u2019s always been good to my dad but been mad. I actually feel like she\u2019s really let go because I feel like somehow my points were communicated.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Let me just give you my little spiel and you can dismiss it or take whatever of it might speak to you but the first thing you have to ask yourself is, \u201cWhat purpose is this anger serving me?\u201d You may be in an activated time or feel really sad or hurt and it might be protective in nature. Anger does serve a purpose and I do not ever advocate people to not feel anger, just like I would never say, \u201cDon\u2019t feel grief.\u201d In fact, all these happy things that I\u2019m saying, you need to let them inch into your life. If you commit to three minutes a day and then five minutes and then you make it a practice, it builds over time so that they are there when you need them and when you\u2019re ready for it.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">If you just need to stew in your sadness or anger, go for it. If you want that to be your whole life, that is your prerogative. But what I\u2019m going to say, which is not my original quote but tell me if you can find who said it because it\u2019s attributed to lots of people, \u201cHolding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.\u201d So, why would we do that? That doesn\u2019t make any sense, right? Except if you\u2019re feeling really hurt, in times it can help us function and get through the day.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I have a little story which might sound like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s nothing compared to what I\u2019ve gone through,\u201d and I get that but I\u2019m just going to tell you my story in terms of the process. I have a friend in a bigger group of girlfriends who I\u2019ve been friends with a long time and she did something that I felt was really unkind to me. I was really doing my best to try to let it go but I just couldn\u2019t. I kept thinking, \u201cWhy do I need to forgive her?\u201d Or, \u201cMaybe I could forgive her.\u201d Eventually after several years, I had this little flash of clarity which was probably around when I was writing the book, but it was going through my loop and I was thinking, \u201cYou know what? I can forgive myself for remaining angry at her. I can forgive myself for being human and for all that has happened and for all that she is and all that she was and for not being able to just let it go. I can also forgive her for not apologizing and maybe not even realizing what she did or for doing what she did in the first place. I can just let it all go because I\u2019m going to decide to let it go.\u201d Again, remember that the things that happen to you, they don\u2019t really have anything to do with us. That might make you think, \u201cWell, then why do I even talk to people?\u201d but that\u2019s a whole other conversation for another day.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">The weirdest thing that happened was, when I did that, maybe a few weeks later I saw her for the first time and she had no idea that I went through this process. We had a conversation and she said to me, \u201cI don\u2019t know why that happened back then. I don\u2019t know what happened.\u201d I remember thinking, \u201cWell, I know what happened,\u201d but I literally didn\u2019t feel angry anymore. I still remembered what happened but I didn\u2019t feel the emotion about it.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">One great thing that works for people sometimes, beyond talk therapy or coaching, because I know you do coaching, I do coaching &#8211; there are somatic modalities of therapy like the emotional freedom technique, which is EFT. Or EMDR, which involves rapid eye movement, where you say certain mantras and you do certain things and you literally peel back the emotions like skins on an onion. Those can really works for a lot of people. It\u2019s more for trauma therapy but divorce is a trauma, it is a death. It\u2019s a time of reckoning and rumble. And as Brene Brown would say, \u201cEmbrace the suck,\u201d and you can really get through and become better. You can become better together even when you\u2019re apart. Even if you\u2019re separating from an impossible narcissist, you can make really powerful choices about how you\u2019re going to respond.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>If I\u2019m in a divorce situation and the other individual is not cooperating, they\u2019re not about the five essential elements; they don\u2019t care about patience, respect, clarity, peace, forgiveness. How do I respond?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>They\u2019re like, \u201cScrew you. I\u2019m going to take as much money as I can.\u201d \u201cI\u2019m going to take the kids as long as I can.\u201d \u201cI hate you. I hate your mom and dad. I hate everything about you,\u201d and you\u2019re trying to do all these things. How do you deal with that?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">That\u2019s really why I wrote the book. I had so many clients who were in that exact position. Now I mostly just mediate in person and online but what I found is there\u2019s so many really nice, calm, centered people who are married to hot-headed impossible people. We find each other like magnets. The only thing you can do is work on your ability to respond and your ability to stay strong. It does not mean let yourself get trailblazed over. Sometimes you have to go to court. Court is there for a reason and is there for a purpose. Sometimes you may be surprised that your spouse just needs to be spoken to firmly by a judge and then they get in gear. Sometimes a bully just needs to be bullied back.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">For the person who\u2019s always one down, this might sound funny for me to say as the author of <i>Better Apart<\/i>, but because I am a divorce attorney for twenty-five years, remember sometimes the best defense is a strong offense. Don\u2019t think that your bully isn\u2019t going to come on really, really strong. You need to do deep work and get yourself with a therapist or a coach. Honestly, I wouldn\u2019t say one or the other because if you have the time and the insurance, I would do both. I would get a therapist, get a coach and read self-help books. Do everything. Surround yourself with people who build up your self-respect. Get really clear about what you need. Step away from the story of your relationship because it doesn\u2019t even matter. You just need to manage how your life is going to unravel and be extricated as you move gracefully forward into the beautiful rest of your life.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Oh, Gabrielle, that is just beautiful. Yes!<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Oh, thank you. That means a lot coming from you.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Yeah, that is just beautiful because sometimes unraveling from the story of your relationship, there\u2019s something about that inside of us that tells us we\u2019re less than and there\u2019s not an ability to be fully who you are for whatever reason. I see that in a lot of the women that I connect with. There\u2019s a re-emerging of their identity and a reacquaintance of it and a discovery of it to say, \u201cWow, this is who I am.\u201d<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I want to raise one point based on what you were just saying. There\u2019s actually a tiny little section between my intro and my chapter one called <i>Pause, Maybe You Don\u2019t Need a Divorce<\/i>. I just recently counselled someone who came in for a divorce and as we spoke it sounded like there was some stuff going on and this person decided, \u201cI can\u2019t deal with this, so I guess I have to get a divorce.\u201d I was like, \u201cWell, you really still love your spouse. If you\u2019re going to get a divorce, maybe you need to get in there and rough it up a little. Have those difficult conversations and see if your relationship can grow from this. I\u2019m not saying you\u2019re going to change the person, but rather than just leave, sometimes we can go deeper.\u201d<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">You\u2019d be surprised how many times outside the courtroom I see the couple embracing after. There was one circumstance back when I worked for Judge Sunshine, who\u2019s now the chief administrative judge for all the matrimonial cases for whole New York state. We had an order of protection hearing. A woman had thrown a glass of wine at the guy and he was excluded from the marital home because of this one fight that they had had. Things got a little out of hand and I felt like we were at the end of <i>Law and Order<\/i> because the judge and I went down the side stairs and we came out and we looked down and we saw this couple who just been going at it in court, giving each other the biggest, most heartfelt hug. We looked at each other, I felt like the credits were going to roll.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>So, ironically, if both parties actually worked on these five elements that you\u2019re talking about, they could stay together.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Absolutely. It doesn\u2019t mean by the way, that they\u2019re going to all stay together. But I do think it means that if they decide to separate, it\u2019s going to be a much better, more elegant path forward. If they could truly each work on where they\u2019re struggling and find the patience or the forgiveness, those two are really big, the blame game is also big, but people really want to talk about forgiveness. In fact, Elena, who is the yoga and meditation person who co-authored with me, she did a whole episode on <i>Goop<\/i> with Gwyneth Paltrow just about forgiveness. So, forgiveness is a really, really big piece of it. But even if it turns out that you find you\u2019re just better apart, the book is going to give you the tools to actually be better apart. Now that the book\u2019s out my husband is always joking and saying to me,<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>\u201cMaybe we should just be better apart.\u201d Anyway, that\u2019s a separate podcast.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>The beautiful thing is, that if you cultivate these five elements in your life if you are apart, no matter who you\u2019re with in the future, whether if you choose not to<\/b> <b>have a partner or you choose to have one, your life and your relationships are going to be so much better because of these five elements.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">That\u2019s right and the exercises are really clear and simple and easily accessible. Again, just like anything else, you need to do them every day, several times a day. You need to make that list. You need to draw that picture and say that mantra. When I was in my twenties and early thirties, I was a bridesmaid about fifteen times. I decided at a certain point, \u201cI\u2019ve got to meet somebody and get married if I\u2019m going to have kids.\u201d So, I started almost like a mantra, to make a list of the qualities of my husband. If you saw them, it looks like I\u2019m a crazy person but within six months, my husband appeared and he literally had every single quality. I have permission from him to say this but in full disclosure, there\u2019s some things I didn\u2019t think to put on the list. And there\u2019s some things that were on there that turned out to be less important than I thought. But whatever, the point is, when you get clear, you are much more likely to get the outcome that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Absolutely, and you work with couples to mediate, not only locally where you are in Massachusetts, but around the globe you connect with people? <\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Absolutely, because today with the Zoom platform, I do really wonderful online mediations with people all over and they just consult with their attorney and we create a memorandum of understanding that they can bring back to their attorneys.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Perfect and if they want to work with you, they can go to <\/b><span class=\"s1\"><b>www.gabriellehartley.com<\/b><\/span><b>.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">That\u2019s right.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>We\u2019ll of course put that in the show notes. If you\u2019re on an Apple podcast you can swipe up on your phone and the show notes are right there and you can click through. They\u2019re also on our website at <\/b><span class=\"s1\"><b>www.insporising.com<\/b><\/span><b>. We want to make sure that people go and get your book. Do you give your book to clients when they show up in your office?<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">I actually do. I do. When they\u2019re in my office I do give them a book, otherwise I just have them order the book online. We really work a lot with the content of the book. I also am very shortly launching the <i>Better Apart: Optimized Living<\/i> Masterclass. Which is a very neat and tidy program that is affordably priced. It\u2019s a nice compliment to whatever coach you\u2019re already working with. You join my list by doing an opt-in at gabriellehartley.com and when it\u2019s launched, probably in the middle of August, you\u2019ll get notice for it.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>Okay, so you should go to <\/b><span class=\"s1\"><b>www.gabriellehartly.com<\/b><\/span><b> and purchase her book, which is <i>Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate<\/i>. Gabrielle, you are fiery. I\u2019m going to guess; I\u2019ve never met your husband but I\u2019m going to guess he\u2019s the mellow one. He\u2019s a little more reserved. <\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">He\u2019s a lot more reserved. He\u2019s not actually as mellow.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>I knew it.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">That\u2019s what I should have written on the list. He\u2019s not as mellow as he appears. We\u2019re both pretty intense but he\u2019s much more reserved. I\u2019m very embarrassing. He\u2019s from rural Maine, I\u2019m from Brooklyn, New York.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>I love it and you\u2019re making it work.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Yeah, that\u2019s right. Relationships are, for most people, not seamless and easy. They\u2019re just not. So, that\u2019s another thing your listeners should remember. You might have that one best friend like my closest girlfriend who is in the easiest relationship. They\u2019re just really, really naturally great together. You might be thinking, \u201cOh, she doesn\u2019t really tell you everything, it\u2019s not really true.\u201d But it really is just a great dynamic. But I know a lot of women, and I\u2019m sure you all have a lot of friends who struggle. It\u2019s hard to be with another person all the time and to have the business called life with each other. So, just knowing that and knowing that if it\u2019s hard, you\u2019re not living on an island. I personally find that very helpful.<\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\"><b>It is a challenge. There are challenges for each one of us. In different ways for sure. Gabrielle, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. It\u2019s been so good to be with you.<\/b><\/p>\r\n<p class=\"p1\">Likewise, thank you so much. <b> <\/b><\/p>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:paragraph -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:separator {\"className\":\"is-style-wide\"} --><\/p>\r\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator is-style-wide\" \/>\r\n<p><!-- \/wp:separator -->\r\n\r\n<!-- wp:paragraph --> <strong>Subscribe to Inspiration Rising<\/strong> on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/inspiration-rising\/id1448649388\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/m\/Iqrp5q3bagph2t23malprd3dxvy?t=Launch_Yourself_Today\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Google Podcasts,<\/a>\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/42zIsXzjCibZt49xdCRvB4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Spotify<\/a>, or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/podcast\/in-plain-sight\/launch-yourself-today\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stitcher.<\/a><!-- \/wp:paragraph --><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Gabrielle Hartley is a leading divorce attorney, mediator, coach, author and speaker. Her book, Better Apart: The Radically Positive Way to Separate, is the first book of its kind to combine the life changing, healing wisdom of mindfulness, meditation and yoga with practical advice and legal wisdom to get the reader through and beyond the [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":7064,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_exactmetrics_skip_tracking":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[49],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-7061","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcast"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7061","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=7061"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7061\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/7064"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=7061"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=7061"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/insporising.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=7061"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}